Excellent discussion! So many ideas swirling in my head on this day we’re supposed to be celebrating warriors.
One point that triggered me concerned the issue of how progressives share some of the “blame” for where we collectively find ourselves. As a nominally white male, I used to identify as a Progressive. Until about a decade ago when I started to notice the purity tests and circular firing squads.
People wonder why young males are trending conservative. I read or watch hours of hand-wringing by liberals over this issue, but very little self-reflection. Have they considered what it might actually be like as a young man to hear slogans like “the future is female”? (What place is there for me? Am I supposed to roll over and be a subservient cuck? Oh look! here’s a movement that let’s me be in charge, just like nature intended! I think I’ll stick with that.)
For the record, I was raised in very conservative, fundamentalist, Evangelical church. I know how these people “think.” But I went my own way starting in my teens towards Progressivism.
Then, as I mentioned, in my middle age, My journey lead me away from progressivism towards classical liberalism. I realized that progressives are well-meaning but ultimately ineffective. Because they are crazy.
There. I said it.
Crazy to think that they can recruit “allies” while at the same time totally shutting down any conversation that questions their dogmas.
Crazy to think “ally” means “you should support me but I will not lift a finger to help you or even try to understand where you’re coming from (because you’re privileged bla bla bla).”
Crazy to think they always hold the moral high ground.
Crazy to believe that Power can be deconstructed away.
Crazy to think facts can overrule feelings. (Ok, all liberals, including myself, are crazy like that.)
I hope you are taking this as constructive criticism. Because without a deep, honest look at how the Left’s messaging and positioning has at least partially contributed to the terrible resurgence of fascism, we will keep losing.
On the above, the future being feminine and where is your place in that, could it be that whether you are in a male or female body that we as humans need to tap into our feminine energy more. We each hold both masculine and feminine energy. So, from this perspective YOU and any male identifying person could either tap into that energy, or begin to MAKE SPACE and ALLOW for it to be here. The sacred feminine is about trust, intuition, flexibility, mystery, a knowledge that all things and beings are interdependent.
Right now, I am still learning how to tap into the qualities of the feminine. Even though I am female, I have also lived life in this patriarchal system and developed a lack of trust of intuition and somewhat of a disconnection to nature as a result. I believe we will be guided as individuals on each next step if we are truly seeking answers with heart and integrity. My path to that is meditation and yoga (and mantras), but everyone’s path might look different, but if we hold the same yearning I believe anything is possible. I experience so much more synchronicity these days after working on particular "prayers." Every time it reminds me to trust we can be guided as individuals no matter who you are, or what your status is etc.. Currently reading The Return of the Mother which has some interesting info on our current predicament, and even this book I found on the street after finishing a 40 day mantra practice on Shakti energy. There is even a masculine quality to the question we are all asking, "how we do get others to do such and such?" And this is a great intention, but it still holds the masculine quality of control. So, really maybe we each just connect with source in whatever way we know how as individuals, wherever we are consciously, and I sense this will bring answers. I TRUST this will bring answers, next steps to take etc..
I agree - it isn't really rational (i.e. not sane) to think that making enemies of people by labeling, guilt-tripping, and judging them is somehow going to make them see things your way and win them over.
This was a good and timely conversation, though it feels a little incomplete, which was acknowledged at the end by the suggestion of several follow-ups. I found myself seeing Kimbra, poised in the middle between two men, as the primary spokesperson for the idea that a kind of awakening, something powerful and real, can potentially arise in the relational space between people, a kind of direct experience of spiritual truth. (But maybe I'm making this up out of my own conviction that this can happen and is happening.) She talked about offering people a "different kind of power", the idea that people actually can offer something of real value to the world. Yes - I think this is so important!
Speaking of religion as a container for spiritual experience, there is an interesting book called "The Rose of the World" by Daniel Andreev, a Russian writer, poet, and Christian mystic. He spent ten years (1947 - 1957) in a Russian prison, during which time he had visions which were the basis of the book. In "The Rose of the World" he described a future time when world religions would be united around a single spiritual truth, like the petals of a flower. (This is somewhat similar to what the Bah'ai faith teaches.) From Wikipedia: The book "contains a detailed description of numerous layers of spiritual reality that surround Earth, of the forthcoming religion called Roza Mira that will emerge and unite all people and states, and of the events of the future advent of Antichrist and his fall." I haven't read it recently, but on first reading found it fascinating.
I read a fascinating dissertation on evangelical Christianity that explored what happens during evangelical church services. The author explained that this group experience (high-energy dancing and singing) neurally entrains an ecstatic trance state. She looks at it from a biophysics perspective - that when these people believe they are getting high on the holy spirit, they are likely having a natural psychedelic experience. The speaking in tongues happens only when they are in this deep trance state.
I have met people who have attended these churches, and they speak about a 'born again' experience that sometimes sounds similar to a full-on DMT trip. If so, it makes sense that young people seeking a direct experience are flocking to these 'born again' churches.
You aren't going to get that kind of trance dancing and singing in a sedate Catholic mass. However, the theology of evangelical religion is really messed up (you are a lowly sinner and Jesus had to offer a blood sacrifice - is a belief I cannot understand personally).
Excellent discussion! So many ideas swirling in my head on this day we’re supposed to be celebrating warriors.
One point that triggered me concerned the issue of how progressives share some of the “blame” for where we collectively find ourselves. As a nominally white male, I used to identify as a Progressive. Until about a decade ago when I started to notice the purity tests and circular firing squads.
People wonder why young males are trending conservative. I read or watch hours of hand-wringing by liberals over this issue, but very little self-reflection. Have they considered what it might actually be like as a young man to hear slogans like “the future is female”? (What place is there for me? Am I supposed to roll over and be a subservient cuck? Oh look! here’s a movement that let’s me be in charge, just like nature intended! I think I’ll stick with that.)
For the record, I was raised in very conservative, fundamentalist, Evangelical church. I know how these people “think.” But I went my own way starting in my teens towards Progressivism.
Then, as I mentioned, in my middle age, My journey lead me away from progressivism towards classical liberalism. I realized that progressives are well-meaning but ultimately ineffective. Because they are crazy.
There. I said it.
Crazy to think that they can recruit “allies” while at the same time totally shutting down any conversation that questions their dogmas.
Crazy to think “ally” means “you should support me but I will not lift a finger to help you or even try to understand where you’re coming from (because you’re privileged bla bla bla).”
Crazy to think they always hold the moral high ground.
Crazy to believe that Power can be deconstructed away.
Crazy to think facts can overrule feelings. (Ok, all liberals, including myself, are crazy like that.)
I hope you are taking this as constructive criticism. Because without a deep, honest look at how the Left’s messaging and positioning has at least partially contributed to the terrible resurgence of fascism, we will keep losing.
On the above, the future being feminine and where is your place in that, could it be that whether you are in a male or female body that we as humans need to tap into our feminine energy more. We each hold both masculine and feminine energy. So, from this perspective YOU and any male identifying person could either tap into that energy, or begin to MAKE SPACE and ALLOW for it to be here. The sacred feminine is about trust, intuition, flexibility, mystery, a knowledge that all things and beings are interdependent.
Absolutely. You and I know that. But how do you convey that to young people with limited access to education?
“The future is female” as a slogan conveys nearly the opposite of what you so eloquently said. At least to those outside of feminist circles.
Right now, I am still learning how to tap into the qualities of the feminine. Even though I am female, I have also lived life in this patriarchal system and developed a lack of trust of intuition and somewhat of a disconnection to nature as a result. I believe we will be guided as individuals on each next step if we are truly seeking answers with heart and integrity. My path to that is meditation and yoga (and mantras), but everyone’s path might look different, but if we hold the same yearning I believe anything is possible. I experience so much more synchronicity these days after working on particular "prayers." Every time it reminds me to trust we can be guided as individuals no matter who you are, or what your status is etc.. Currently reading The Return of the Mother which has some interesting info on our current predicament, and even this book I found on the street after finishing a 40 day mantra practice on Shakti energy. There is even a masculine quality to the question we are all asking, "how we do get others to do such and such?" And this is a great intention, but it still holds the masculine quality of control. So, really maybe we each just connect with source in whatever way we know how as individuals, wherever we are consciously, and I sense this will bring answers. I TRUST this will bring answers, next steps to take etc..
I agree - it isn't really rational (i.e. not sane) to think that making enemies of people by labeling, guilt-tripping, and judging them is somehow going to make them see things your way and win them over.
This was a good and timely conversation, though it feels a little incomplete, which was acknowledged at the end by the suggestion of several follow-ups. I found myself seeing Kimbra, poised in the middle between two men, as the primary spokesperson for the idea that a kind of awakening, something powerful and real, can potentially arise in the relational space between people, a kind of direct experience of spiritual truth. (But maybe I'm making this up out of my own conviction that this can happen and is happening.) She talked about offering people a "different kind of power", the idea that people actually can offer something of real value to the world. Yes - I think this is so important!
Speaking of religion as a container for spiritual experience, there is an interesting book called "The Rose of the World" by Daniel Andreev, a Russian writer, poet, and Christian mystic. He spent ten years (1947 - 1957) in a Russian prison, during which time he had visions which were the basis of the book. In "The Rose of the World" he described a future time when world religions would be united around a single spiritual truth, like the petals of a flower. (This is somewhat similar to what the Bah'ai faith teaches.) From Wikipedia: The book "contains a detailed description of numerous layers of spiritual reality that surround Earth, of the forthcoming religion called Roza Mira that will emerge and unite all people and states, and of the events of the future advent of Antichrist and his fall." I haven't read it recently, but on first reading found it fascinating.
I really enjoyed that. Diverse points of view and well informed. A delight after the doom drivel flooding the media. Mimetic doom loop. Argh.
Great conversation!
I read a fascinating dissertation on evangelical Christianity that explored what happens during evangelical church services. The author explained that this group experience (high-energy dancing and singing) neurally entrains an ecstatic trance state. She looks at it from a biophysics perspective - that when these people believe they are getting high on the holy spirit, they are likely having a natural psychedelic experience. The speaking in tongues happens only when they are in this deep trance state.
I have met people who have attended these churches, and they speak about a 'born again' experience that sometimes sounds similar to a full-on DMT trip. If so, it makes sense that young people seeking a direct experience are flocking to these 'born again' churches.
You aren't going to get that kind of trance dancing and singing in a sedate Catholic mass. However, the theology of evangelical religion is really messed up (you are a lowly sinner and Jesus had to offer a blood sacrifice - is a belief I cannot understand personally).